Education may be “the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world,” in the wise words of Nelson Mandela, but is that true of education in all its forms?
That, indeed, has been the question of the day among Linux bloggers, who have recently been debating the value of the traditional computer science degree in particular.
“How worthwhile are Computer Science degrees?” asked the ever-contemplative team over at TuxRadar in an Open Ballot recently, thus kicking off the conversation.
“Many technology companies complain that graduates, even of Computer Science, arrive with little understanding of how to work in industry and often lack knowledge of basic coding paradigms,” they added. “This seems a great shame to us, especially when there’s so many high quality open source projects out there who’d love some students to help them out, and who they’d be happy to mentor in return.”
FOSS aficionados have had no shortage of opinions on the topic — at TuxRadar or beyond.
‘It’s a Trophy’
“I’ve been a developer for a few years and am completely self-taught,” wrote Johnny in the comments on TuxRadar, for example. “The majority of people who I have worked with in the industry were also self-taught.
“When we were hiring recently and had to do interviews, the candidates who had degrees were often not as good as those who had more real-world experience,” Johnny added.
Indeed, “it’s a trophy, good for display only, but not much good for anything else,” asserted Anonymous Penguin From The Kitchen. “Just like those ornamental swords hanging on the wall. Can’t beat the humble kitchen chopper that’s in daily use.”
‘I Don’t Think I Learnt Anything Crucial’
Then again: “When I came to choosing what degree course to apply for, I was pretty sure a Computer Science degree would probably consist of an awful lot of teaching that I didn’t require, since I’d already picked up quite a lot of knowledge by that point,” chimed in blogger Paul Gideon Dann.
“In the end, I decided to go for something a little off the beaten track, and chose a degree in Artificial Intelligence and Computer Science, which was 50% CS and 50% AI,” Dann added.
Even so, “all in all, I don’t think I learnt anything crucial at university,” Dann concluded.
‘A Degree Is Not Needed’
Similar opinions could be heard down at the Linux blogosphere’s Punchy Penguin Saloon.
“Most of the time a degree is not needed for even advanced programming tasks and never needed for systems admin work for the average, but a degree is needed to get past the less competent HR departments,” consultant and Slashdot blogger Gerhard Mack offered.
Of course, “I really question if anyone with actual skills would want to work in a place that knows so little about the IT industry,” he added.
“I have seen some specialized places that had a legitimate reason to need a degree, but those places are very high level work and I would only suggest a degree if you REALLY love programming and want to take it to a specialized level such as physics simulations, compression/encryption work, etc.,” Mack concluded.
‘One Path Among Many’
Similarly, “I have met excellent software engineers, programmers, and developers who had a CS degree and others who did not,” agreed Chris Travers, a Slashdot blogger who works on the LedgerSMB project.
By the same token, “I have met many mediocre developers who had a CS degree and many who did not,” Travers added.
“I suspect that in some areas of software development, a CS degree is extremely helpful, but I don’t think it is ever required,” he explained. “One thing the open source community is very good at doing is encouraging people to learn by both doing and by talking to those with a great deal of formal training or knowledge.”
Such transfers of knowledge “can be compared to apprenticeships in the old guild system,” he pointed out.
All in all, “I see a CS degree as one path among many,” Travers concluded. “However, one clear advantage it has is that it is meaningful to people who do not know our industry and yet are in charge of screening resumes.”
‘Good Advice for a Decade’
Blogger and educator Robert Pogson said he is “so old my academic career started before Computer Science took off at my university, otherwise I would likely have studied that instead of Physics,” he told Linux Girl.
“My love of all things computer started during first year university when I laid hold of a room-filling pocket calculator called the IBM 1620 which had blinking lights and a typewriter console,” he explained. “With it, I learned Fortran II and Assembler/machine language.
“Later, on the IBM System/360, I learned many different programming languages before I latched onto Pascal and Modula 2,” he added. “Those were some of the best years of my life, and computers have been important to me ever since.”
As a teacher, Pogson has often told his students that “if they were the least bit keen on maths and science, they should get into computer science or DNA tinkering,” he noted. “I think that has been good advice for a decade, and I don’t see any closing down of opportunities in those fields.”
‘Be ANYTHING But a Tech Guy’
Slashdot blogger hairyfeet wasn’t so sure.
Computer science degrees are valuable — “in Bangalore,” hairyfeet opined. “The guy in Bangalore with a half a dozen degrees only gets paid around $19k; you REALLY think you can compete with that?”
Until the U.S. government “does something about offshoring and H1-Bs, you’ll continue to see what happened to the blue collar workers happen to the IT guys,” hairyfeet predicted. “I’m personally tired of hearing of guys that had to train the H1-B that would replace them, or seeing ads in the paper that are so obviously written following the ‘How NOT to hire an American’ playbook.”
Hairyfeet has also advised his oldest son to “be ANYTHING but a tech guy,” he added. “Programmers will be joining autoworkers and machinists on the bread lines. Their degrees cost less than $5k, yours cost over $50k; they can live well on 15K a year, you can’t even pay your student loans.
“It’s simple economics, folks — survival of the greediest — and nobody makes ‘greedy’ like a U.S. corporate head,” he concluded.
‘An Education-Loan Bubble’
Ultimately, “the real concern is, , a blohow valuable is ANY degree in the current circumstances?” opined Barbara Hudsongger on Slashdot who goes by “Tom” on the site.
“We’re in an education-loan bubble, similar to the mortgage-loan bubble that imploded a few years ago,” Hudson explained. “Students today are frequently taking on 6-figure debts for a degree that in many cases will never earn back the extra cost, will be out of date before they graduate, and will be irrelevant to their careers several years down the road.
“I only know one person who is using their degree in their original field of study,” she added. “For everyone else, it’s been a case of ‘stuff happens.'”
In short, “the sad fact is that times have changed,” Hudson concluded. “The ‘second IT bubble’ is tailing off. You’ll make more money and have better job security as a cop or firefighter — those jobs can’t be outsourced to the third world, and you have a union to negotiate better working conditions, benefits and wages.”
Loading ...
My comments may refer to a bygone era, when computers were a mystery, but in 1967 I was drafted after studying Industrial Design in college. I went into the Navy and circumstances led me to their 2-year Data Systems School.After three years in the fleet I returned to teach (after 6 weeks of Instructor Training)at the same school. I knocked off my BS in Operations Research while there, and went to work in Silicon Valley.
Most of my contemporaries had EE degrees, so I spent 4 years part-time attending graduate school and got my CS MS degree. I have to say I learned more in that 2-year Navy School than I did in graduate school. That semester-long Finite Math class was taught in 2 weeks in the Navy school. I knew more about how a computer worked internally than most of my PhD instructors.
Over my 40-year career I learned that those short, intensive courses, if properly taught, trump what the universities offer.
I’ve hired and managed many CS people over the years, and agree that folks with a CS degree may be good, or not -it depends on the person, and their ability to dive in and consume a problem. The nerds that hung around the computer center late into the night were generally a better bet than those who didn’t.
The pea-brains with degrees in Psychology are the ones manning the HR departments. They haven’t got a clue and never will.
I disagree with the prespective of seeing computer science as a degree for developers and especially for "professional" developers. (or even worse as programmers).
First of all, Computer Science (personally i believe informatics) is a Science. If an individual chooses to follow an academic course in Computer Science he should have in mind that it is not a developer school.
Of course in CS school you are taught the Basics of developing and programming BUT we shouldn’t forget that, as in open source community and in bussiness propiertary development, the individual HAS also himself (an in collaboration with others) to learn and gain experience for example through hands-on practice and reading. This factor is important also in CS schools, so dont blame CS schools for providing poor developing courses or for not being useful.
If someone wants to be a "developer" then he can become one by self-study and participation in projects. Later on he can follow courses in many types of education (for example vocational programs on developing). Computer Science is another more broad aspect in education.
Finally the only thing to blame on CS schools is that instead of promoting science (and of course some business oriented courses and not only academic) they tried to become a poor version of "academic" vocational school that provides a "certification" with which someone will find a job. All the other stuff have to do with PERSONAL choices, or choices mandated by the market.
True CS degrees are useful but for a different reason. CS = programing-developing school.
After spending the past 15 months writing code, it has become clear that my career has shifted from a systems admin path, to a programming/web developer path. I have learned enough to be dangerous, and have considered investing in some additional education, possibly a CS degree. After reading this article I AM not sure what to do.
I recognize that a degree might be a means to open doors, and validate my knowledge (for those who don’t know enough to ask the right questions when hiring), however, I had hoped that a formal education would also provide a foundation on which to build and enhance my budding programming skills.
…..still pondering…
" Hairyfeet has also advised his oldest son to "be ANYTHING but a tech guy," he added. "Programmers will be joining autoworkers and machinists on the bread lines. Their degrees cost less than $5k, yours cost over $50k; they can live well on 15K a year, you can’t even pay your student loans.
"It’s simple economics, folks — survival of the greediest — and nobody makes ‘greedy’ like a U.S. corporate head," he concluded. "
. . . need to add the word "stupidity". Many of the heads are not educated nor intelligent to fully run their company. Witness the many law suites and government bailouts due to same.
The above article just touches the surface of non-educated controlling the U S Economy.